Episode #37: Future-Proofing US Manufacturing: Building a Resilient Workforce with Friddy Hoegener
In this episode of U.S. Manufacturing Today, host Matt Horine welcomes Friddy Hoegener, founder of Scope Recruiting, to discuss how industrial firms can develop an effective workforce strategy in today's shifting manufacturing landscape. Friddy shares insights on aligning talent strategies with operational goals, the impact of AI and automation, and the importance of flexibility and adaptability in the workforce. Listeners will learn how to translate macro shifts like tariffs and reshoring into actionable workforce plans and the critical role of strategic talent management in building a resilient manufacturing sector.
Links
- Friddy Hoegener on LinkedIn
- SCOPE Recruiting Website
- Navigating Trump 2.0
- Veryable Is Revitalizing U.S. Manufacturing
- Sign Up on the Veryable Platform
- Veryable Shop
Timestamps
- 00:00 Introduction to U.S. Manufacturing Today
- 00:15 Meet Friddy Hoegener: Founder of Scope Recruiting
- 02:44 The Importance of Aligning Talent Strategy with Operations
- 05:12 Navigating the Hiring Process in Manufacturing
- 07:06 Current Trends in Manufacturing and Supply Chain
- 07:48 The Role of AI and Automation in Manufacturing
- 15:23 Challenges and Solutions in Reshoring Manufacturing
- 23:35 Key Traits of Top Candidates in Manufacturing
- 28:04 Conclusion and Where to Learn More
Episode Transcript
Matt Horine: [00:00:00] Welcome back to US Manufacturing today. The podcast powered by Veryable where we talk with the leaders, innovators, and change makers, shaping the future of American industry, along with providing regular updates on the state of manufacturing, the changing landscape policies, and more.
Today our guest is Friddy Hoegener, founder of Scope Recruiting, a firm dedicated to helping industrial firms build the right workforce for the next era. Along with hosting a podcast called Procurement Pulse, with his experience in helping companies scale, restructure, and adapt their talent models, Friddy's Insights will help manufacturing leaders translate macro shifts into actionable workforce plans.
Whether you're dealing with tariffs on imports, shifting production back to the US or realigning your supply chain, it all comes down to having the right people. In the right place with the right strategy. Friddy, welcome to the US Manufacturing today.
Friddy Hoegener: Hey Matt. Thank you for having me.
Matt Horine: We're very excited to have you on because I think this is a very relevant topic right now, something that we're seeing a lot of headlines about.
But before we jump into that, we'd love to get started by hearing about your background [00:01:00] and how you founded Scope Recruiting.
Friddy Hoegener: I started my career in supply chain. I started with ab, went through a global trainee rotational program, ended up becoming a global commodity manager there, then was a supply chain manager with Kohler.
And then about eight years ago we started SCOPE recruiting. And the way we got into it is my wife actually got into recruiting two years before I did, and she was working for another boutique supply chain recruiting firm. However, she was the only one there who actually had that hands-on supply chain experience.
So after working there for two years and really seeing the value of knowing and understanding supply chain, being able to, to understand the challenges, to understand the requirements companies have, and then translate that into. Candidate profiles and having meaningful conversations with candidates and being able to evaluate candidates and not just read a list of questions, but have actual conversations with the candidates and being able to dig deeper because we [00:02:00] know supply chain, we decided to start Scope recruiting about eight years ago with the idea that all of our recruiters should have a, a supply chain or operations background, and we teach 'em the recruiting side of the business.
'cause we think having that industry experience is, is much harder to teach than, than the recruiting process. Yeah. We're going eight years strong now, and like you said, we work with a lot of industrial manufacturers, but also three pl, some high tech companies. Right now a lot of data centers, the construction, there's certainly industries that are doing right now and industries that are struggling a little bit more.
Matt Horine: No, that's great. In eight years, there's been a lot that's happened in the supply chain world over the last eight years. A very interesting time to launch a recruiting firm specifically focused on that. You highlighted something there that I think really resonates and will resonate particularly with our audience, that operations first and supply chain First mindset.
Many manufacturers are deeply technical, but the workforce strategy component is often an afterthought or just [00:03:00] looking to fill a position or do something very specific just to to get somebody into the organization. Why do you think manufacturing firms historically struggled to align that talent strategy with the operation strategy, and why is that such a focus for scope?
Friddy Hoegener: I think you hit it on the head there. A lot of times it's a little bit of an afterthought, right? If you're in operations, you are busy, you are, you're running around 24/7, and do you really want to spend the time and sit down with HR and all the stakeholders and instead of having a generic job description, sit down and map out what an idea candidate would look like, maybe go a little bit above and beyond on the job description and put in, okay.
What do the first 90 days look like? What does success like for the first 12 months? Then maybe even put together something we highly recommend and can help with is a candidate scorecard. Right. I think if you start with a candidate scorecard and work your way back, you take a lot of the biases and the, and the guessing out of the hiring process.
The thing I think drives me up the wall is. If we find a perfect candidate and then the company [00:04:00] say we need to see one or two more people. To me, a lot of times that just shows that there wasn't a clear picture of what are we looking for from the beginning. Because if you know what you're looking for and you hit that 10 out of 10, you don't need to see anybody else.
So starting with a candidate scorecard, and what we do there is, okay, what are the skills you're looking for? What is the industry background you're looking for? What is the culture fit you're looking for? What are the high level, the salaries and all that? And then how do you interview for it, right? And what happens a lot of times is, let's say.
We're hiring for a supply chain manager. The supply chain director has one idea of what they're looking for. The VP has a different idea and maybe HR has something else in mind. So when candidates go through the interview process, they're all interview for a supply chain manager. But, uh, the priorities can be different.
Somebodys may be focused more of on the demand planning. While the next one is focused a little bit more on logistics, so. I, I think to what you said in the beginning, it's sitting down before you start the hiring process and really narrow down [00:05:00] and define what are we looking for, and then being able to react quickly.
And once you find that candidate, you don't need to see two more candidates. Once you have the perfect person, you should be ready to go.
Matt Horine: No, that's another really good point. The hiring dynamic cycle is something that is very interesting because we. If you look over the past five to 10 years especially, there's been this kind of faster, rapid shift from what they would call having the employer, having kind of the weight, being able to have a better hiring environment versus the candidate.
And we went through that cycle of work from home or RTO, and it was like candidates seemed to have their pick of where they wanted to work from, but now that's shifted back over to the employer in terms of having a little bit more selection. And so finding. Finding the candidate, it's always it. The thing that holds true in either environment is if you find somebody that's a fit, the 10 out of 10, just go with it.
If I'm getting the what you're saying, you know exactly right, but it's being decisive and taking that person who checks most of the boxes, and particularly in the operation scope.
Friddy Hoegener: It definitely has [00:06:00] shifted more to what there is. There's more people on the market right now, but I would say that the top performers are still passive candidates, right?
If you post a role, you still, you might get twice the amount of candidates you got two years ago now as applicants, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the quality got any better, I would say. We haven't gotten to the point yet, right? Where the layoffs have gotten so bad that top performers are out there in the market.
It happens, right? A lot. Sometimes people want to relocate. There's family reasons. Every now and then you can get lucky, but typically we target and we submit about 90% of candidates. We submit a passive candidates that aren't applying. Two, because usually we have better tenure with those candidates.
They're typically higher performers. You don't get into, if you do have active candidates that are strong, they still might end up with two or three offers. So you get to the offer stage and then you're still competing and hoping. Right. And you get into the counter offers and all of that. Really, nobody wants to deal with that.
Matt Horine: Yeah. That's some of the, the more technical side [00:07:00] of the market and those types of things. And I think you also hit on something right now, shifting a little bit too. The current market and what's been going on in supply chain and manufacturing at large. We've been talking a lot on our show about tariff impact, reshoring, supply chain realignment, a lot of the trends that we're seeing over the past 12 to 18 months.
From a talent perspective, what trends are you seeing in manufacturing firms responding to that? Do you see this kind of shift away from. Bringing things back onshore or nearshore, needing more talent in the manufacturing space to answer the call of what we think is the opening season here of a big shoring movement.
Friddy Hoegener: Yeah, I think where a lot of companies only wait and see position, I think right there is a push to bring more manufacturing, but it's probably gonna take another six, 12 months before we really start seeing the impact on that. In the meantime, you have AI automating jobs and reducing workforce. Right. And we'll see.
I think there's gonna be some form of balance that we end up with, and I think it's [00:08:00] hard to tell right now. Is it, is AI gonna cost more jobs than manufacturing reshoring is bringing back, or is it gonna be. Are we gonna have a talent shortage again here in the next six to 12 months? So I, I really think that a lot of companies wait and see when it comes down this, if they don't have to hire.
I feel like a lot of companies are still trying to see if they can get by without it if they have to hire. And again, there's certain industries like data centers, ai, construction, infrastructure that we see are still doing very good. And there. Competition for that type of talent is definitely fierce.
We're working on a, a few roles that are both engineers, project managers on the data centers, but also with very large companies on cooling for data centers, on cooling for GPUs and the competition for talent there is absolutely enormous. And so while in in other industry, automotive we know has been struggling.
Here we are in Alabama. South of Alabama has a lot of [00:09:00] automotive, a lot of electric, automotive as well from Mercedes and some others, and they're definitely in, in a bad spot right now.
Matt Horine: That's a really interesting split because the competition is very fierce for a lot of the things that you see making headlines like AI and data centers and those types of things.
But traditional manufacturing roles are, there's that split, right? The hurry up and wait, the wait and see how things shake out. I think Bill. Farley. The CEO of Ford just recently came out last week and said that they had 5,000 mechanical light type jobs that they're working to fill, which we've at Variable have always said.
There's not necessarily a shortage of workers. It's a lot more about access and how people see that traditional manufacturing work split up. But in the manufacturing space, what types of roles are you seeing that are hardest to fill right now based on. Those types of skills or kind of the classic manufacturing and supply chain roles?
Is it skilled operators? Is it engineering? Is it the data and automation, or are there any trends below the fold that we're seeing in the headlines?
Friddy Hoegener: Skilled labor is definitely the hardest one, and that's [00:10:00] not something we deal with too much, but I know from the companies we do work with, the welders, machine operators, they're definitely hard to find and maybe the hardest to find.
The other ones are entry level roles in. In rural markets, a lot of entry level roles, right? Those candidates, they wanna be in the bigger cities, they don't necessarily wanna move to smaller markets. So entry level roles, I think are definitely tougher to fill than a director. If you have a manufacturing business, a director is much more likely to relocate right now than an entry level role.
And then I think that. Partially due to interest rates and where they are for the last two years, three, two years probably. People have been very reluctant to give up their mortgages and move, and so that's definitely stifled the talent market as well, that it was much harder to find candidates willing to relocate even for 20,000, $30,000 raises, because at the end of the day, if you go from a 2% mortgage to eight.
A 6% mortgage that might have already eaten up that [00:11:00] that raise you just got. So there's a lot of factors I think that we see, but I overall, I say skilled labor and entry level roads in that are outside of big cities.
Matt Horine: That makes a lot of sense and you really hit the nail on the head with a lot of the affordability question right now, which is.
Shaking itself out in weird ways. I think there was a paper this week from the San Francisco Fed about the impact of tariffs. What does it do on the overall inflation environment? What does that mean for the employment market? Obviously you drive those, that demand down. Unemployment spikes up a little bit, but when tariffs and sourcing changes hit, how should manufacturing organizations or any organization really shift their workforce strategy?
Or do you see companies needing more flexibility? Options or are they doing more cross training or are they coming up with different types of recruiting models? Is there anything that's specifically targeted as in terms of a strategy to the tariff environment right now?
Friddy Hoegener: Yeah, and that's something we discussed actually with one of our guests in the latest podcast.
And I think the key is flexibility and our guests pointed [00:12:00] to, right. It's really not that different than COVID. When COVID hit, everything broke down. It was chaos. So. On the supply chain side, the solutions are the same that there were before. If you are single sourced and your single source is now in a high tariff region, you ob you have a problem and continuing to be single and dual sourced.
The way the tariffs are might continue to be a problem. So what you really need is 3, 4, 5 approved vendors that, that you can work with that are in different regions. And nobody wants to split their their spend too much because obviously that's gonna affect pricing, but not as much as all of a sudden being in moving your sourcing from China to India only to find out that India now has a 50% tariff or a hundred percent tariff.
So. I think the solution is flexibility and being agile, right? That means having multiple. Approve vendors throughout the world and yeah, bring them back What you can to, to the us, right? There is a lot of products you cannot find in the [00:13:00] US and it might take some time before that's being produced again in the us In the meantime, I think it's having that flexibility and creating a workforce that's not.
Task oriented, but solutions focused and work strategically. I think a lot of the tasks as far as they can get automated, will get automated, and I think the real hurdle there is who takes responsibility. It's not that AI couldn't automate a lot more than we're currently already are. I think it's in the end, everybody still wants a person to sign off on it because if AI does everything right and AI gets it wrong, then we'd still need somebody to blame for lack of better, or take on the responsibility or double check it and put that human check mark on the work.
AI did so. I think there's gonna be a transition period where AI can greatly enhance productivity on those tasks, but you definitely want to, to future prove your workforce by having people that are strategic that can work with ai, that [00:14:00] embrace AI and right, in terms of tax, that, that aren't doing the same thing 80% of the day, if they are, if they're placing pos day in, day out, probably something that.
Either want to provide training or, or workshops or, or opportunities to, to grow their skills because over, yeah, I think over the next couple of years a lot of those jobs will go away. So that kind of hits both, right? In order for candidates to have job security, they need to be pushing to become more solutions and strategic.
And for companies, in order to keep up with the competition, they will have to follow suit and optimize and utilize AI where possible. And then have people in strategic positions to make the right decisions when it comes to economic outlooks. Tariffs, new technology in terms of automation and everything that goes into it.
Matt Horine: That makes a lot of sense. And what you've s said, something that was a recurring [00:15:00] theme on our show, which is the concept of AI being a lot of upskilling potential and the ability to automate a lot of the more routine tasks that make workers more productive. I think there's. Probably too much of a trend of fear tactics around what AI is and what it isn't, and we've certainly seen that play out in some of our manufacturing base where it's, I, it's helping people do their jobs better, and that's the ideal.
In your experience, how far can US manufacturers scale domestically without some type of workforce bottleneck? You're seeing some, like a specific bottleneck to how people. It doesn't necessarily have to be an example of somebody who's reshored all their production, but it's somebody that's looking at it.
You highlighted location as a little bit of a challenge. Are there other specific bottlenecks that stand out? If I was to say I'm a manufacturer, I wanna onshore reshore my production and my business, what kind of challenges do you foresee beyond just some of those first level ones that you see in everyday recruiting?
Friddy Hoegener: Yeah, and I think that's something the current president did a little bit on [00:16:00] our 180 1 here recently is the H one B visas and the need to bring in more talent. And I think there, there definitely is a, a shortage of talent that needs to be compensated either through AI or by bringing people in. And I think that's something that the US has always done.
Going back to Reagan, the idea was that the best of the best want to come to the US because they, it's the land of possibilities, right? And that's, I think it's always been a strength for the US to be able to attract the best talent from around the world to be in the US and wanting to work here. And.
Continuing to utilize that advantage and being open to that, I think is necessary to get that manufacturing revolution we are looking for because the manufacturing revolution is not gonna look like a hundred people standing on, on machines, operating machines. When I started with A B, BAB, B, we had a a circuit breaker manufacturing plant.
They had the same plant in Indonesia, I think in [00:17:00] Argentina and in Germany. And it cost the same to produce. In all three countries because you had five engineers walking around in that building. Nobody touching any machines. And that's the future of manufacturing, right? You're gonna have engineers, you're gonna have software developers, you're not having people standing on stamping machines, stamping products.
You don't have the manpower for it, and you're not gonna be competitive doing it. So the only way to do it is by having guild workforce that are engineers, that are write writing codes, that, and that know how to lay out a, a manufacturing plant. And I think that's the only way to bring back US manufacturing.
Matt Horine: That does make a lot of sense, and I think it's also something that we see a lot of businesses that talk about either some type of quote unquote skills gap or some type of, you know, of gap in training. Do you see a lot of companies that you're working with making the investment to train their own workforces and what they want to see in the market?
That's something that. Has been a recurring theme for us that [00:18:00] something we see people calling for this type of training or workforce development or something like that. Do you see a lot of companies pouring their resources into training their own teams and specifically as you recruit, is that something that helps attract that higher level management talent saying, Hey, we know we have a robust in-house training system.
That will address the productivity needs of our business.
Friddy Hoegener: What we see, a lot of times it's the other way around. I think companies realize that they have, that they go out, they hire that higher level, director of operations, director of continuous improvement to bring in that level of training and development.
So a lot of times companies come to us, say, okay, we now we have problems with efficiencies. We have a turnaround situation in our plant. We need to bring in somebody with experience of building cultures, of building teams, and developing people. We go top down, right? So that's, I think the most common case we work on is that companies come to us and say, we, we know we need help.
Can you help us find somebody who can put in those types of processes [00:19:00] and trainings that we need to get to that next level? Yeah,
Matt Horine: that's something that we, in terms of the manufacturing workforce, you see a lot of partnerships. You see a lot of things that are in the market with. Some type of educational structure.
We've seen local governments, places technical colleges and all those people throw their hat in the ring and say, we can help and we can partner with this for the local economic development. But the, the real game changers, at least from our side, have been the organizations that have said. We know we need that training and we need to build it in-house because in the new world of work, how people have become more flexible and the ability to move has essentially been something that has been pulled from the market where people want to have choice and selection and be able to go places and carry skill sets and upskill themselves.
It's become more of this concept of, hey, if we want that for ourselves, we've gotta build that for ourselves. So always something that I ask because beyond the recruiting. The recruiting channel and recruiting pipeline for that director of operations and above role, it's what kind of workforce are you getting?
What kind of [00:20:00] team environment are you stepping into? And there's, you've gotta have game changers and people who can step in and build that for themselves. Are you seeing manufacturers build a little bit more resilience so that when supply disruptions or tariff shocks do hit again and they will hit again?
Do they have the ability to pivot very quickly?
Friddy Hoegener: Yeah, I think companies that hadn't done through during COVID and. Right. During COVID, we had one of those where the chip shortage was affecting everybody equally, more or less. I think what's different now is that China isn't the go-to solution anymore, and there's some other countries that aren't the go-to solution anymore, so.
There's certainly companies who are still reacting to that and they're still might. We recently hired a, a VP of ops and he did an analysis of the organization and they didn't have a supply chain director yet, and he said, we really need the supply chain director to, to look at our contract manufacturing.
To look at our vendor relationships, to look at where are we single source, where are our risks, right to, to do a deep dive into our, [00:21:00] um, supply chain and make sure we are protected right. They're US manufacturer, they're the only US manufacturer of that type of product, so they have a huge advantage right now.
But they certainly have still, right? There's components that they buy that put 'em at risk. And I think in order to take full advantage of, of being that US manufacturer, you have to look at new materials at your components and analyze where are you still exposed, and then diversify that risk as much as possible.
And we certainly see companies that come to us and say, Hey, we need a director of supply chain. Who can do that? Somebody who has experience. Working with Asian countries, not just China, right? Somebody who has experienced domestically as well, who can evaluate new contract manufacturers, who can do vendor onboardings.
Has that strategic knowledge and that that full picture, right? It's not just about cost anymore, it's total cost of ownership and then it's how exposed are you and [00:22:00] Right. That's where the future, I think a lot of supply chain jobs lies is doing that type of analysis. So that's what's the future proof part of supply chain.
It's not the purchasing portion, it's that strategic full picture. How do we want to be set up as a company and how does. Your supply chain strategy aligned with your overall business goals and your manufacturing operations.
Matt Horine: So that's definitely something that people have to be quick on their feet about.
I think about past manufacturing roles that I've been in and dealing with contract manufacturers is very interesting, right? Because their, their sourcing list, they take care of it for you is how it's built in terms of building your products and getting the build material put together. And then all of a sudden you're finding out exactly where your product and components are made from.
If the tariff hits or if there's a shortage, or if there's some type of Chinese New Year with something that always came up as a surprise for us that we didn't know parts specifically were coming from different countries, and so having somebody who can guide that and make decisions versus just the automated procurement process of just putting in a [00:23:00] buy order or doing those types of things, I think that's all gone away, especially if you incorporate AI into it in some level.
Those types of decisions and looking and searching is a lot of that lift is being taken off the person in the role. So something really to think about if you're, if you're on the market right now, if somebody was, you know, in, because there is a lot of volatility, there is a lot of change going on in the manufacturing and supply chain landscape as a candidate.
There are folks who are looking at maybe being part of this reshoring movement or looking for manufacturers that are built somewhat in the United States that are working in the process of that. What are some of the the best qualities of candidates that you're seeing in the market right now that are adapting to this new environment where they're saying, Hey, if we're coming to a new manufacturing organization, or we're trying to be part of a new organization that's involved with reshoring, or if they are stepping out onto the market because of unforeseen change, or they're looking to do something different, what are some of the best traits that you're seeing in candidates right now?
Friddy Hoegener: Candidates that are [00:24:00] focused on skills, outcomes, results, and that don't just have standard filler sourced a hundred million dollars, but instead say, okay, we had 20 million of electrical components sourced out of, so on 20 million of this. Negotiated rates got 4% savings on time delivery went up. The candidates that are very specific in their resumes and then their answers with detailed projects, and those are typically candidates, right, who can take their skills and apply it to new situations.
I feel like candidates who have that type of mindset wanna understand that in a resume and in a job interview, generic answers isn't what you need, but it's no specific Right. And I think that's something we always tell our candidates, right? Give specific examples of what you were in charge of, right? If nobody really cares, if you were part of a, a project and somebody else did all the work, right?
It's what did you do? [00:25:00] How did you do it and what was the end result? And if people are good at articulating that, and they have done that multiple times and maybe have proven that they can do it across different industries or across different categories, they also can then adapt to new situations. And I think that's a lot of times companies are looking for specific industry experience and sometimes that limits their capabilities because.
If you already have three people, let's go with construction. Construction historically just has been very behind the ball in terms of supply chain. A lot of times project engineers fill out the requisitions, they do the purchasing, but there's not a coherent. Strategic sourcing strategy within construction.
And a lot of times construction companies come to us and say, Hey, we need somebody with construction experience, which is good because they can hit the ground running, but are they really gonna be able to improve your processes and maybe bring your supply chain to the next level? So. [00:26:00] Looking outside of your industry, a lot of times can bring in right outside perspective and outside experience that you didn't have, that they might take a little bit longer to get up to speed to your specific industry, but they are going to be able to uplift your team and bring in new imports and inputs that, that you wouldn't have otherwise, which are gonna be much more beneficial in the long run.
So I. Looking for candidates that are adaptive, that have shown themselves to, to be able to adjust to different situations, and that can clearly communicate how they have done that and how they accomplished it. I think those are the candidates we are looking for when we are targeting passive candidates is candidates who have a track record and not just write fluff words on paper that kind of don't tell you anything.
First, we always obviously look at the, at a profile, at a resume, and then we have conversations with those candidates and we dig deeper, right? It's okay, let's go with a category manager, right? There's a lot of category teams in larger organizations where a. [00:27:00] There is a category manager in each region, but typically there's one person who creates a category strategy and then that kind of gets funneled into the other regions and into maybe other business units.
And those category managers are more in charge of implementing that strategy. So having that knowledge and then being able to dig deeper is okay. Have you been hands-on in those projects that you've mentioned on your resume, and then how did you create those strategies? How did you lead your teams? How did you get stakeholder input and buy-in?
And I think like those are the candidates that stand out. Those are the candidates that can adjust, and those are the candidates. Weird. Targeting when we are working for our clients
Matt Horine: makes a lot of sense. It's something that flexibility, adaptability, all of those things are on both sides of the table in in the market right now, where candidates have to be able to adapt and build strategy versus just the old filling the position type structure.
And companies need people. That's a really great point, by the way, is if you're hitting a wall in your organizational strategy, looking for the perfect fit, [00:28:00] sometimes looking outside of the industry could really. Bring new perspective and shed some light on it. Where can our listeners learn more about scope recruiting and get some more of your content from your podcast and engage with that?
Friddy Hoegener: Yeah, you can find us on www.scoperecruiting.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, Friddy Hoegener. There aren't too many, so that should be fairly easy to find. And then YouTube and Spotify, you can find our podcast as well, but you can find it on our website too. So if you go on scope recruiting, there's gonna be plenty of links where you can find more content and learn.
Learn a little bit more about us.
Matt Horine: Friddy, thank you for coming on the show today, and it was really insightful and helpful for our audience as things are changing rapidly, so we really appreciate it. Thank you. To stay ahead of the curve and to help plan your strategy, please check out our [00:26:00] website at www.veryableops.com and under the resources section titled Trump 2.0, where you can see the framework around upcoming policies and how it will impact you and your business. If you're on socials, give us a follow on LinkedIn, X, formerly Twitter, and Instagram. And if you're enjoying the podcast, please feel free to follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, and leave us a rating and don't forget to subscribe. Thank you again for joining us and learning more about how you can make your way.