Episode #25: Ironman Suits, Not Terminators: Augmenting Mfg with Technology, with Russ Bukowski of Mastercam
In this episode of U.S. Manufacturing Today, host Matt Horine sits down with Russ Bukowski, President of Mastercam and member of the Forbes Business Council, to discuss the evolving landscape of American manufacturing. They dive deep into the manufacturing talent pipeline crisis, the impact of AI and automation on the workforce, and how education and apprenticeships are shaping the next generation of skilled workers. Russ shares insights on bridging the skills gap, the importance of clean data for successful AI implementation, and strategies for future-proofing the industry. Whether you’re a shop floor leader, educator, or industry enthusiast, this episode offers actionable advice and a forward-looking perspective on building resilience in US manufacturing.
Links
- Mastercam Website
- Russ Bukowski on LinkedIn
- Russ Bukowski on Forbes
- Navigating Trump 2.0
- Revitalizing U.S. Manufacturing
- Sign Up on the Veryable Platform
Timestamps
- 00:00 – Introduction & Welcome
- 01:00 – Guest Introduction: Russ Bukowski of Mastercam
- 03:00 – Russ’s Background in Manufacturing & Technology
- 06:00 – The Manufacturing Talent Pipeline Crisis
- 10:00 – The Role of Parents and Education in Shaping Careers
- 13:00 – AI, Automation, and Bridging the Skills Gap
- 18:00 – Apprenticeships and Partnerships with Schools
- 22:00 – Mastercam’s Approach to Software, Automation, and AI
- 27:00 – Implementing AI: Clean Data and Practical Advice
- 32:00 – Trade Policy, Reshoring, and Industry Trends
- 36:00 – Generational Gaps: Gen Z, Technology, and Training
- 41:00 – Advice for Manufacturers: Future-Proofing the Workforce
- 45:00 – Where to Learn More & Closing Remarks
Episode Transcript
Matt Horine: Welcome back to US Manufacturing today, the podcast powered by Veryable, where we talk with the leaders, innovators, and change makers, shaping the future of American industry, along with providing regular updates on the state of the industry, the changing landscape policies and more.
Our guest today is Russ Bakowski, president of Mastercam, one of the world's leading CAD cam software providers used by machinists across the globe. Russ is also a member of the Forbes Business Council where he is. Recently shared insights on how manufacturers can build resilience through ai, smarter workflows and cleaner data.
We're thrilled to have Russ with us to talk about the manufacturing talent pipeline, the role of automation and AI in bridging the skills gap and how America can future proof its industrial workforce. Russ, welcome to US Manufacturing today.
Russ Bukowski: Thanks, Matt. Happy to be here.
Matt Horine: We're excited to have you. So before we dive into it, we'd love to hear a little bit more about your background and what you're doing at Mastercam.
Russ Bukowski: I got my start originally in, in computer science. I went to a trade school for computer science and graduated college with a degree in software [00:01:00] design. So I've always been passionate about the technology aspect of the world, and a lot of people may not know this, but I have a bit of a background in manufacturing as well.
I worked in a, a machine shop several decades ago, started sweeping floors, worked my way up to a manual deburring on a grinding wheel, and eventually left there after having some time on the drill press and manual laid under my belt. Dangerous enough to know what's going on in manufacturing. Smart enough to know that I'm not the right person to be operating the more expensive machines these days.
But at MasterCam, a lot of my time has been spent working across product development, commercial aspects of the business. And recently we've been on quite an acquisition journey, bringing in some of our independent sales vendors, bringing those into MasterCam so we can have a closer relationship with our customers and have a little bit more management of the customer experience as we start to vertically integrate and get closer to those customers that are out there actually handling all the manufacturing around the world.
Matt Horine: That's great background. I think you said a couple things there that caught my attention, that vertical integration and getting closer to the cus a [00:02:00] proven playbook, so that's pretty fascinating. But you've had a couple of things out and thought we'd just dive right into something that you set out and laid out.
I've seen on socials before and what we've talked about before, but the talent pipeline crisis and how, how that's impacting the world of manufacturing. We talk a lot about it at Veryable just because. We're a big proponent of labor access and people getting into manufacturing. So it's a hot topic for us, but let's just start right at the beginning.
What's big picture? What do you see? As the most broken parts of today's manufacturing talent pipeline.
Russ Bukowski: Yeah, there, there are probably a lot of things I could point to Matt, but I'm gonna point to one that might be slightly controversial and I think it starts at home. I think we need more parents investing in coaching the next generation, the young generation, the students, that manufacturing is not only a viable field to enter It's no longer the machine shops of the past. It's not dirty business. It's clean, it's high tech. These days, having grown up as a an older millennial was, it was driven into my head over and [00:03:00] over again. You have to do well in school so you can go to a good college so you can get a good job. And the big thing that was coming out when I was graduating around 2000.
Everybody needed to learn to code, right? That was the big thing. You have to learn to code. The New York Federal Reserve recently did a an analysis, and they're finding that recent computer science grads have unemployment rates higher than 6%. And when you get into more of the special specialized skill sets in computer, like computer engineering, it's even higher, seven 8% in some cases.
So what we're seeing is we're seeing that there's a surplus of talent in these high tech fields, and they're not attaching it to manufacturing. Manufacturing is becoming a very high tech field. I really believe that if we want to encourage more young people, more students to get involved in manufacturing, parents have to start talking to them earlier about manufacturing being a high tech field, which means we need to do our job to continue to educate people in the us.
On the fact that manufacturing is a high tech field and there are advanced robotics applications, there's advanced [00:04:00] AI applications happening here. There are some really interesting customers that I work with that are automating not just the manufacturing, but the programming of the scene. Sea machines in really unique ways, and these are all high tech jobs.
These are jobs that can be done remotely. They're being done from an office, and of course, you need. Some understanding the manufacturing floor to be able to do this, but they're high tech jobs and so I feel like for us to have a renaissance in the US around manufacturing, we really need parents to be involved.
And I would say this goes for all of the, the skilled trades. Let's reinvest in skilled trades. Let's show people that there are viable careers there. It's not just about going to the four year colleges and getting those degrees for fields like computer science. We will always have a need for computer science roles as things evolve, but people need to recognize that manufacturing is a high tech field, and the more parents we have pushing that message, the more people will hear it.
Matt Horine: That's a really powerful statement because it's one, people talk a lot about the manufacturing talent pipeline. What the gap is. I think there's that [00:05:00] famous Deloitte stat out there, about 2.1 million manufacturing jobs projected to go unfilled, and they don't talk about it starting at home. And that society's changing what a four year degrees mean.
Now they're different than what they mean. They met 10 years ago and very different than possibly what they look like 10 years from now too. It's really something that people are trying to keep up. But just like you said, that learn to code, you've heard that across industries, there was the learn to code.
Fiasco back a couple years ago when they talked about re reducing hands-on coal mining, and I remember that distinctly, and now we have this need for coal and we have this need for energy. It applies to manufacturing as well. It's something that is easily said, but not always easily done. Follow up question to that, how does the shortage right now impact the day to day for machine shops and OEMs and suppliers?
You're out there with a lot of customers. What does it look like today and what is the worry about where it's going?
Russ Bukowski: Today the, the concern is obviously losing that institutional knowledge they have, and this is where we hear a lot about ai, right? A lot of companies want to move to [00:06:00] AI because they don't expect AI to necessarily replace their talent.
They expect to be able to capture the knowledge of today to augment the talent of the future. And that's a lot of how MasterCam is positioning things like AI in our field. It's not a replacement for a CNC programmer. It's an augmentation. It gives them options. It gives them the ability to have somebody there with them constantly that has 40 years of knowledge without actually needing a person to fill that role.
Right? You talk about feeds and speeds, data, tooling data, things like that. That's the biggest concern I hear from customers is there's a divide in the talent coming in the industry today. It's a pretty obvious divide for me when I go and visit customers. I'm walking their shop floor and I'm looking at the, the operators and the programmers that they have in their business.
There's a pretty big telltale sign on whether somebody is what I'll call an old school a manufacturing expert or a new school manufacturing expert, and it really comes down to do they have the machinist handbook on their desk? And the machinist handbook is what a lot of people [00:07:00] my generation and older learn from, right?
You learn about. The engineering math and the manufacturing math, and you learn about feeds and speeds, and you learn about all these things at a really detailed level. But nowadays, what we're seeing is we're seeing software come in as a replacement, and the expectation is the software will be able to do a lot of this, but software is not a replacement for manufacturing knowledge, and that's creating the skills.
Because the new generation of manufacturing experts, they want the software to do some of that for them. 'cause they wanna focus more on the creative aspects, right? They have an idea, they wanna bring the idea to life. They don't want to necessarily be focused on all the details of the craft of manufacturing.
Matt Horine: You said something earlier when we first launched into this, about that millennial generation. I'm right around. I'm an elder millennial myself, and so there's this kind of nostalgia feeling for the old school manufacturing, what we view, but now this augmentation where it's actually helping you in your day-to-day role.
I we're seeing. With other guests and folks who come on the show tending to coalesce around this AI is not [00:08:00] taking your jobs. This isn't some editorial board that says the AI is coming and this isn't Silicon Valley that says it's coming to take everybody's role. In every instance in manufacturing where there's some kind of technology, boom or this.
At this big event, it's always an augmentation. It's how do we make the worker better? How do we make their job better? How do we make the outcomes better? So it's really great to hear that coming from your customers as well. You touched on a couple of things about the importance of early education on this.
How do programs like apprenticeships and partnerships with schools, how does that. Help rebuild the pipeline. Do you see a lot of traction with that out there right now?
Russ Bukowski: Absolutely. Mastercam is a huge proponent of education and so we work with a lot of education institutes, not just in the US but globally.
There's a a big push in education institutes to get more young people involved in manufacturing. There are a number of programs out there that we work with, and I'm actually gonna point to one outside of the us. We've been working through our channel partner in India. We're part of this ITI program.
It's this institutional training program for industry in India, and it's backed by large [00:09:00] manufacturers like Tata Automotive over there. And so what we're seeing is we're seeing a lot more of the manufacturers invest in education because they know that's how they're gonna get future talent is they're helping build those pipelines, and we're seeing it in the US as well.
We're seeing a lot of organizations now that are actually insourcing apprenticeship programs, or as they used to leave it to the local trade schools and colleges to do this. They're now building their own apprenticeships so that way they can control. Their own supply of talent coming into the business.
And so they're taking on 10, 12 students a year into these apprenticeships, and then at the end of the year, they're taking the best two or three from those programs. And so we're seeing a lot more of that happening, not just in the US but again, globally.
Matt Horine: Yeah. It's a really positive trend. A rising tide lifts all boats, right?
Like we, we've seen a lot in the reshoring movement and some of the things that are happening in the broader context of the macro environment. The story used to be 30 years ago, labor arbitrage. People would just move manufacturing offshore because they were paying dirt wages and they, the quality [00:10:00] was something that would catch up.
And now I think we're at a stage where to be globally competitive. It's not as much about offshoring just because of labor, but now those countries are at a place where that's not the advantage. It's something where everybody has to compete on a global scale and big reason why it's such a, a lens into the national security with our manufacturing base.
And we'll get into that hopefully here in a few minutes, but I want to touch back on a couple of other things. One, talking a little bit about Mastercam as a leader in the cad/cam software for machinists. What you're doing now, what kind of customers you have. A little bit more about Mastercam, just uh. Just to make sure our audience is aware.
Russ Bukowski: Mastercam was founded in 1983, so we're one of the original players in the digital manufacturing space. If you will focus solely on Cadcam for the last 40 plus years and to have a very robust offering. We support pretty much any machine type you might find on the shop floor these days.
From a simple two and a half axis mill all the way up to complex mill turn machines, wire machines, panel processing, laser water jet, et cetera. [00:11:00] So Mastercam offers a suite of tools for offline programming. We have a full integrated CAD package as well. We also integrate with all the other major CAD and PLM players on the market.
Mastercam is a fantastic point solution, but could it also be part of a broader, uh, enterprise solution? We were acquired by Sandvik in 2021. So we have strong partnerships with the Sandvik organization, not just their tooling business, but the growing digital portfolio, including some great businesses such as vericut for simulation and optimization, and Metro Logic for inspection and analysis.
So we offer a full enterprise suite. When you look at the, the partners that we work with in the Sandvik ecosystem. Mastercam right now the big focus for us is obviously we're hearing a lot about automation, ai automation, ai, and that's where the focus in the industry is, and that's where we're really going down.
So we're working on not only making our software easier to use for new users, but also automating several of the more tedious processes for the advanced users to allow them to focus on other aspects of the manufacturing process, especially the [00:12:00] high-end manufacturing process. Because what we're seeing now is we're seeing a lot of the existing talent in the field.
They're being brought up because they need to be solving more complex challenges, right? Complex multi access manufacturing, complex mill turn operations. And so we're trying to close that gap so when people come into the field, it's easier for them to access the more simple processes, the simple turning, simple milling operations in the software.
So big focus is on ease of use and automation. Things like APIs and programming interfaces to be able to actually automate from a command line what Mastercam can do, but then also artificial intelligence as far as presenting information in the software. So that way if people have questions, you can go ahead and type in a question.
The AI will give you a response on how to do something in Mastercam. We just released a feature back in July this year called Mastercam co-Pilot, and it's a fully interactive text-based chat where you can chat with the the AI. About anything you want in Mastercam, you can even execute commands from the ai and that's part of the future of the automation, right, is being able to [00:13:00] ask the ai, can you standardize a process or can you execute a process, not just a single task in the software.
Matt Horine: Really great points about how it helps uplift your customers and your your own organization. Because people think about it as this very, I don't wanna say pedestrian view of using chat GPT and asking questions like a search engine. It's actually something that's programmable in, in multiple points and nodes that can help build out designs and processes, which.
You wrote an article recently about a month ago, it looks like in in Forbes, called Building Resilience, leveraging AI for Smarter Manufacturing, and it noted AI powered tools help machinists learn faster. Where's a lot of the augmentation that you were just speaking to? And I think a quote from the article that really stood out, it said something to the effect of, AI isn't a silver bullet, but it's strategic implementation changes everything.
Can you explain that concept and what the start small focus on clean data means in practice?
Russ Bukowski: Absolutely. Great question, Matt, and I think this goes for any ai, not just AI and manufacturing, right? If you're implementing AI in your business, you wanna start with something that's understandable, right? Don't start with the most complex [00:14:00] problem because it's gonna have the most gaps, right?
The thing that a lot of people need to be aware of with AI today is it's very non-deterministic, meaning you can give it the same set of inputs multiple times and get very different outputs. And I think that's a big barrier for implementation of AI and business today, is that trust. So when I talk about focus on clean data, the better your data and the better your inputs are, the more deterministic of answers you're gonna get from the AI and something that you're gonna feel more confident in.
So if you're a manufacturing shop and you're looking to automate a part of your workflow using ai, start with something that is very discreet. Start with something that is very understandable based on the information you have today. Don't expect. AI to fill in the gap. If you have a gap in knowledge in your organization today, AI's not gonna replace that gap in knowledge.
So you start with the knowledge that you have around a problem, you really understand, and then you use the AI as a tool to help you automate that process. And then you can verify and validate the data coming out of the AI as something that is logical and is a good fit for your business. It's [00:15:00] still gonna be, I think, years before we have enough.
Data in manufacturing to truly have an AI that can do things like programming feeds and speeds and clean tooling recommendations and things like that. Because right now we just don't have collectively manufacturing, we don't have that knowledge sitting in the database somewhere. And it's understandable because a lot of manufacturers wanna protect their intellectual property and they see their manufacturing process as part of their intellectual property, let alone the actual parts that they're manufacturing.
May be for an upstream or downstream supplier. I always tell people, start with something that you understand today. Use AI to help you get better at it so that way you can still manually verify. But if you have a gap in your process or you have a gap in your knowledge, AI isn't gonna make that process better.
In fact, it's probably gonna make that problem worse for you if you try to use AI on it.
Matt Horine: That's something that I don't think has been as clearly stated as it could be out in the market because you hear a lot of this. We're going to bridge the gap with ai, or we're gonna make something you know better [00:16:00] with AI instead of the augmented component of this, where it's making your core workforce or your customers experience all those things better just by automating the repetitive processes and the pieces that tend to bog folks down.
Turning a little bit. To some of the things that we're seeing at the national level, policy trade, future of US manufacturing, reshoring, reindustrialization. We talk a lot about it on this show. I think you had a stat out there maybe from, it was from the Mastercam website that 96% of manufacturing leaders are concerned about trade policies mostly because there's probably.
Some form of we don't know what we don't know, or if there's things that tend to change over the course of a weekend. Oftentimes we record on this show. If I record on a Friday, it could be different by Monday or Tuesday. That's exciting. But it does have implications for business and the changing environment.
We're clearly going into a new era of global trade. What are some of the insights that you're seeing from your customers, and particularly from a mastercam's point of view? How are the trade policies and things that are going on impacting manufacturing today?
Russ Bukowski: Great question, Matt. And it's not necessarily the trade [00:17:00] policies themself, it's the uncertainty around change that you mentioned that brings the most concern for Mastercam customers today, especially since a lot of our customers are importing raw material for the manufacturing processes, a lot of steel aluminum from Canada and other countries, and the tariffs have a real impact on their business.
So what we're seeing is we're seeing that companies are using more of the stock that they have on the floor as as much as they can. This is where Mastercam focuses on building better sustainability so we can reduce the amount of waste and scrap in a manufacturing process is to try to help those manufacturers get more outta the material and the tooling that they have.
That's a big focus for us right now in an area of concern. We hear from many of our customers, how can you make our process so we're not shipping away as much as many chips to the recycler every week or every month? How can we get more outta the material? But we're also seeing that those same customers are not delaying the delivery to customers, but they're delaying when they order new stock based on those tariffs because they're waiting [00:18:00] for something to break.
They're waiting for something to give they hope. Okay, if I don't order on Friday. They hope there's gonna be some relief over the weekend. They'll order it on Monday, and it's a very difficult position to be in to operate a business with that much uncertainty in the world, especially when you're importing all these raw materials.
Matt Horine: Yeah. You said it. There's the uncertainty piece is, is a component and we've seen people react. Where they're doing logistics companies right now, pull forwards, they're overstocking inventory. You get down to the shop floor, what does that material look like? Where do you store that material? Could you have gotten a better deal next week?
Those are all questions that are pretty open-ended for buyers and purchases and organizations across the country. I want to double back on a couple of other things because it was so important and what you said stuck out about preparing the next generation workforce and. It's a topic I like to bring up on our show because I think Gen Z, there's a lot of fascination around it, right?
Like maybe as a millennial I get it a little more, or I understand some of the trends and what happens, but there's a, a real gap, I think when we look at Gen Z, how do they view. [00:19:00] The technology first workflow versus the traditional hands-on training. We touched on it in the beginning, but I was curious how that's really impacted you and your customers.
Russ Bukowski: Yeah. You know what's really interesting, Matt has been talking to a lot of our training staff lately, and something that was very surprising to me a few months ago, somebody said I had to teach a student in one of the master camp courses the other day how to use a mouse, right? And so we're starting to see this generation of people coming out who don't have traditional desktop PC experience.
Everything's being done on tablets or Chromebooks. And so they're using more of these natural inputs and you're just, you're seeing just that adjustment to say, well, we need to get you to use this mouse, and then you put a 3D mouse in front of them as well with the 3D software, and it's not something they're comfortable with initially.
So we're talking about not just a skills gap with traditional manufacturing information. But largely the manufacturing industry runs on desktop PCs, and that's the experience people have today. And it's a very complex process. So by its very nature, it doesn't lend itself very well to tablet interfaces, mobile [00:20:00] interfaces, things like that.
So we're seeing that we have to teach some students, in some cases, PC fundamentals. To file management. Where do I get my files? How do I move these things around? These are not things that, that the generation has had to manage because it's been managed through other operating systems on their mobile devices in, in a very nice way.
So that's one gap that we're seeing. And then as I mentioned earlier, the other gap that we're seeing is just the general manufacturing knowledge understanding. How manufacturing works from an engineering perspective, again, we see a lot of people coming into the field wanting to use more of the creative outlet, right?
I have this idea, I want to manufacture something. I have a goal in my mind, and I just wanna get there as quickly as I can. And so we really have to also educate on the craft of manufacturing, right? What does it. To have a high quality part. What do tight tolerances look like in the aerospace and defense field, and why is that important?
At the end of the day, from a manufacturing aspect, that's what Mastercam helps their customers do, is provide high quality downstream parts to their [00:21:00] upstream and downstream suppliers. We're having to educate, not just on Mastercam these days, but we're having to educate on computer usage and we're having to educate on engineering fundamentals in some cases because that's not being covered in a lot of the programs today.
It is that technology first workflow that you discussed rather than that engineering first workflow.
Matt Horine: Those are really important insights. I hadn't heard the mouse, the mouse thing before. Somebody, I heard it anecdotally the other day say, we're about one generation away from nobody understanding why we say dial a number.
It's funny to think about, but it's also reflective of how fast technology moves, and you're talking about using a mouse because everything's been so tablet enabled and. It doesn't stand up in manufacturing environments as tough as it should sometimes. So that's, that's really good insight on some of the generational gap.
But I think that there's a lot of what you mentioned about the, the ability to have those kinds of training modules and learning the machines and doing those types of things in real time. That's how people learn. It's not going to school. It's not going to like some kind of long program like it used to be.
It's [00:22:00] that real on the job structure that people learn and it's, it's probably been true for multiple generations where you learn most of what you're doing on a daily basis when you're on the job. And I think that's something that's. Pretty exciting and almost unique to manufacturing in the sense that you're in the physical world making things.
Final thoughts, just thinking through a couple of of other things. If you were talking to a lot of those customers that you had mentioned, and there's a little bit of uncertainty, but also how are people going forward and looking forward? If you were advising a mid-size manufacturer today, what's the single most important step they should take to future proof their workforce and to build resilience, which you had mentioned in your article.
Russ Bukowski: I think that the one piece of advice I would give them, Matt, is don't be afraid of things like ai. You need to lean into the change. Even though we're at the beginning of the curve in manufacturing, and when I say a ai, I'm gonna more specifically say automation, right? And there's a lot of automation that can be done in the digital manufacturing workflow today.
Companies need to lean into that because there's not a surplus of talent out in the field that are gonna come in and backfield fill their existing talent. [00:23:00] And even if they needed additional talent to come in and help them with a rush of an influx of work, they're gonna have a hard time finding that as, as well these days, as you well know from Veryables.
So it's, it's a very important aspect of the future of manufacturing that companies look at automation. Not automating people outta the workforce. That's the important thing is we can't automate people outta the workforce. We need to, again, like I said earlier, uplevel people so they can work on the more complex challenges in the manufacturing industry.
So again, start with something that's small that you can automate and start with something that you do 10 to 15 times a day. That's important as well. Look for those really repetitive tasks in the manufacturing process. And I'm gonna give you an example, Matt. Last year Mastercam introduced a uh, DBER product called Mastercam Dber.
And what used to take a programmer about 15 minutes to deeper apart by programming in Master cam. You can do it in about 30 seconds now. So that type of technology, that's what people need to be leaning into and looking for those opportunities to say, okay, I could program that in 15 minutes with the [00:24:00] tools I already have, but if I upgrade my tools, the cost is nominal.
When you look at the long-term ROI about how often do you debu parts probably every single day, right? So when we look at things like, that's what companies need to be investing is they need to be investing in augmenting their workforce with more tools. We like to joke. We like to say build Ironman suits, not Terminators, right?
So we want people to have the Ironman suit around them that's helping 'em make good decisions, but they're still in full control of what's happening in the manufacturing workflow.
Matt Horine: Really great way to put it. It's something that people are pretty scared about it. It's not just on the manufacturing the shop floor, but to your point earlier in the show.
Software engineers. Everybody's facing it in a different way right now. But there's a way to, to build this, to uplevel all skill sets, and particularly for manufacturing, what you just mentioned is more throughput, better lead times, happy customers, and that's how you win every day, right? So that's if you're a shop floor leader and you're thinking about it in those terms and through those, through that lens.
It's not something that's scary and is the terminator. You're not becoming [00:25:00] self-aware and skynet's activating. It's something really cool and a lot of fun. Where can our listeners go to find out more about you and Mastercam and more about what you do?
Russ Bukowski: Listeners are welcome to visit www.mastercam.com to find all the information on Mastercam's product offering.
I'm accessible on LinkedIn as well and people are welcome to reach out and connect to me. And the other option is we're very active in the community, both through educational events and industry trade shows. So you'll either run into myself or many of my colleagues at many of the trade shows around the world and we always encourage that face-to-face in-person communication.
I think it's so important for building strong relationships. So if you're ever at any of the, uh, the major trade shows, feel free to stop by and see us in our booth.
Matt Horine: That's great. Thank you, Russ, for joining us today and sharing the expertise in the insights. We really appreciate it.
Russ Bukowski: Thanks for having me, Matt.
Matt Horine: To stay ahead of the curve and to help plan your strategy, please check out our [00:26:00] website at www.veryableops.com and under the resources section titled Trump 2.0, where you can see the framework around upcoming policies and how it will impact you and your business. If you're on socials, give us a follow on LinkedIn, X, formerly Twitter, and Instagram. And if you're enjoying the podcast, please feel free to follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, and leave us a rating and don't forget to subscribe. Thank you again for joining us and learning more about how you can make your way.