Episode #21: Securing America's Industrial Future: Insights from Josh Steinman
In this episode of US Manufacturing Today, powered by Veryable, host Matt Horine sits down with Josh Steinman, Founder and CEO of Galvanick, to tackle the pressing issue of cybersecurity in manufacturing and critical infrastructure. Steinman shares his unique background—from his Navy service to his work at the National Security Council—and sheds light on the major vulnerabilities facing industrial technology today. Their conversation explores Galvanick’s pivotal role in combating these threats, while also delving into broader national security concerns such as foreign sabotage, the need for reindustrialization, and the effects of labor policies on the manufacturing sector. Steinman highlights the crucial step of segmenting industrial networks as foundational to strengthening cybersecurity defenses.
Links
Timestamps
- 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
- 00:55 Josh Steinman's Background and Career
- 02:16 Challenges in Protecting Industrial Infrastructure
- 03:22 Common Vulnerabilities in Operational Tech
- 07:29 National Security and Industrial Espionage
- 12:45 Reindustrialization and National Defense
- 16:51 AI in Industrial Operations
- 20:51 Current Issues and Trends in Labor and Cybersecurity
- 26:29 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information
Episode Transcript
Matt Horine: [00:00:00] Welcome back to U.S. Manufacturing today, the podcast powered by Veryable, where we talk with the leaders, innovators, and change makers, shaping the future of American industry, along with providing regular updates on the state of the industry, the changing landscape policies and more.
Today we're joined by Josh Steinman, Founder and CEO of Galvanick, a company dedicated to protecting critical infrastructure and advancing manufacturing. From cyber and operational threats before founding Galvanick, Josh served as senior director for cybersecurity policy at the National Security Council and is a former US Navy officer.
He's one of the most credible voices at the intersection of security, industrial tech and U.S. competitiveness, and one of the most compelling thinkers today on what it will take to not just bring back manufacturing, but protect. He's an outstanding follow on X, which I highly recommend. I'm a longtime fan of his on X, but I'll try my best to avoid the longtime fan first time caller chatter.
Josh, thanks for joining us today.
Josh Steinman: Thanks, Matt. It's great to be here.
Matt Horine: Well, we're excited to have you, and I thought we'd started off with a little bit of your background. You've got a really [00:01:00] compelling background from your time in the Navy to the NSC and now to running Galvanic. I would love to hear how you got here today.
Josh Steinman: Yeah, I got recruited into the sort of Gwot side of the Navy outta college. I had a strange counter-terrorism background that actually started in high school, but was also something of techie. I helped pay my way through college by working on the help desk at the Graduate School of Business at the University of Chicago, doing level one response for MBA students for four years, but yeah, and so my time in the military, I was operating at that edge of how do we operationalize, utilize cutting edge technology to go achieve like cutting edge goals, tactical goals.
Yeah, I did two tours in Iraq and then got pulled into work on a task force that was reporting directly to the senior officer in the Navy, and in that capacity was testing and evaluating cutting edge technologies like augmented reality. This was back in 2013, 2014, and 2015. Then yeah, got out, went to the private sector and then about two years later got asked to come back and take the senior job in the U.S. government.
Matt Horine: Yeah. Excellent career track. Spent some time in the gwot myself. Thank you for your service and uh, I was an Army guy infantry ground Pounder myself. First and foremost, what problem Galvanick is solving in manufacturing and critical infrastructure. Can you talk through what the critical gaps are for you, what you've identified and what do you see as leading to the founding of your company?
Josh Steinman: So it's just hard to protect an industrial facility against cyber attacks today, and those attacks are increasing at an increasing rate.
Our company makes it easy to defend an industrial infrastructure against the cyber attack, cyber attacks, plural, by essentially giving a tool to the existing security team that acts as essentially like an army of analysts to tell you what's happening on that industrial infrastructure in real time. We basically collect every data source that we see on there, and so if you're a factory owner and you have maybe one or two or three folks that are.
[00:03:00] Dedicated to security your company doing like IT security, we can make those folks very quickly competent to protect your really sensitive manufacturing infrastructure or industrial infrastructure.
Matt Horine: Yeah, a huge difference between the traditional just IT and what we would consider. May you maybe call it digital Overwatch or kind of gaining more of that visibility into the complex system.
So what are some of the common vulnerabilities in the operational tech environments that you see, especially with this type of infrastructure? It's something that gets talked about, but as a second, third order of effects versus just the classic cyber attack that we worry about from Iran or somewhere else.
Josh Steinman: Yeah, I mean, security world often talks about incidents or risk buckets in terms of three different categories, confidentiality, integrity, and availability. Like confidentiality is your system, is the data on your system, is the system itself confidential to you? So can someone else reach in and touch or can they extract information outta that?
Integrity, is it working as [00:04:00] design and then availability? Is it available when you want it? When you need it, which should be 24/7. So in the IT world, people talk about those three buckets and I think they apply to the OT world as well. You could talk about it in in different ways, but it's the simplest way in my opinion.
So in terms of what do we see happening in the industrial world, you've got the same things happening. For example, one of the biggest aerospace companies in the world, had all of their CAD files leaked onto the internet by a hostile actor. So that'd be a loss of confidentiality. Now that company is exceptional, mostly because of the human capital that they have, and it's an amazing world-class company that everyone of your listeners has heard of.
But yeah, so you lose material that is proprietary or sensitive. That's a loss of confidentiality. Integrity. Here's an example. Testing facility. Testing facility for weapon systems. Had an unscheduled rapid disassembly. A [00:05:00] few weeks ago, it hit the news again, I'm not gonna mention the company. You can go find it if you want, but this facility was really critical for key weapon system testing, and so far the reports appear to indicate that it was a digital abnormality that caused the facility to explode. So that'd be a loss of integrity, right? The system's, no, no longer functioning. And then availability could be something like a ransomware attack where. Maybe someone comes in and these attacks can sometimes happen, I don't wanna say autonomously, but automatically they can spread as they're, they've been designed to spread.
So you can have like ransomware take over some equipment or all equipment or a facility, and those would be examples of those three buckets. And we certainly see that happening right now. One of the most public examples of. Integrity and availability would be the NotPetya cyber attack that happened in 2017.
It was a huge lawsuit from Mondelez, which is the new name for Cadbury, and that they had a chocolate factory that just got ransomware and stopped producing, and they [00:06:00] went and tried to get their business interruption insurance policy to cover that loss. I think it was a hundred million dollars policy, and spent a whole bunch of litigation around that.
And so those are the types of buckets. Those are what we see. You can also see things where people conduct sabotage on physical equipment that's being manufactured. If I have a tool path that I'm running in a manufacturing process and someone comes in and makes a change, the question is, what was that change authorized?
Did it come through the appropriate digital piece of equipment? So if you're running like Rockwell, did it come from Studio 5,000? And we are seeing things like that as well, so that that'd be subtle kind of sabotage, right? Like the piece is designed with certain tolerances and then all of a sudden a replacement toolpath is sent to the machine and.
That piece may come out looking, it's supposed to look, but it may actually have been subtly altered, and that's also happening.
Matt Horine: Yeah, you bring up a really good point, and I think one of the more common refrains that I'm a big fan of on X, what I see from you is how many [00:07:00] foreign sabotage teams do we think could be operating on U.S. soil that ties directly to national security and industrial security.
If you have eyes for it, you know that it can happen anytime, anywhere. One of my favorite quotes from a company commander, he is probably out there, maybe he's listening. He used to say something pretty simple, security first, security always. And it was like, we know that. But also when you have those types of failures, there were security gaps, there were things that happened and.
If you could, I'd love to dive into it a little bit more, pivot out of that and just more on the national stage and what's going on right now. The growing risk of sabotage and espionage teams on US soil. What is the relevance of a lot of the ice operations that we see with insider threat concerns, not just the national sovereignty stuff, but things that are a little bit more slipped through the cracks, where we actually have foreign actors that could be partaking in that type of thing.
Josh Steinman: There have been numerous reports, both sort of official U.S. government reports, and then informal or non-governmental organization reports that are talking about the threat posed by teams sponsored by company countries like Russia or China [00:08:00] that have a huge sort of population footprint in the United States, whether those are Russian nationals, Chinese nationals, or dual citizens, or even American citizens that may have exploited some of the loopholes.
Our citizenship policy, maybe birth tourism, right? So if you have a Chinese intelligence officer, undeclared who you know we don't know about, brings his wife to the United States on a vacation, and then she happens to give birth while she's here, that child is given us citizenship, and then you just fly back to China after three months and all of a sudden is child, is it?
Chinese citizen, he's probably inside the sort of communist party apparatus, grows up his entire life in China, no connection to the United States, but has a US passport. And at that point, those folks can come back and apply for jobs as US citizens they can try and apply for in-state tuition if they have some sort of PO box in a state for a university, et cetera.
So you have really hundreds of thousands, probably [00:09:00] millions of people that may look like US citizens, but may hold other allegiances. It's just a major, it's a major challenge. And I think the point that a lot of the material that's either come out of Congress or even from the Department of Online Security or other US government entities, is that in many cases our industrial base is built with a mentality that is very much a World War II mentality, which is that the security practices assume a kind of territorial integrity for the United States, right?
And so you're gonna have a fence, maybe you have some security staff, maybe you have some cameras. It's really not built for the 21st century. And if I can, in sort of computer culture, there's this concept called war driving. It's like you drive around with a laptop, scanning for open wifi networks, get on one.
All of a sudden semi-skilled or skilled operator can just start seeing everything that's on that network. And from the industrial side, I think one of the biggest things that we've seen is a lot of companies, especially legacy companies, maybe not the biggest ones, like for very [00:10:00] large companies, we've seen a lot of good work in this area.
But for small, medium sized businesses, even folks with few hundred million dollars in revenue. They were operating a company. They had big heavy equipment. Sometime around 10, 15 years ago, maybe a little later, they were like, oh, the new version of this big piece of equipment is out. And oh, guess what? I can log into an application and control it.
Just I, if I was at the HMI embedded the, the human machine interface. It's physically embedded in that system. Oh, I don't have to get up from my desk. I can just type it in here. What's really going on is that thing's connected to a network or even wifi or today, even cellular. And the question is, what protections have people established around their networks?
And the biggest one that we see is, um, operating a corporate network that encompasses both industrial and IT at the same time. Because if someone logs onto your wifi network and can immediately reach out. Touch some piece of GE equipment that you have on the factory floor, like that's a problem.
[00:11:00] Similarly with the big vectors in, or like fishing or port scanning or things like that, again, you're landing on the corporate network and then you can immediately reach out and touch those industrial facilities. That's like the landscape. Those are some of the big challenges that we see and yeah, I just don't think that we have, I think that corporate leaders really haven't deeply internalized that this new landscape has a whole bunch of different security aspects to it than what they're used to thinking about.
Matt Horine: Yeah, I think that's, that might be right. You've mentioned like the World War II posture and the physical security of a chainlink fence, and there's all kinds of anecdotes about harbor security in New York during World War ii, and you think about it as a very physical thing, but also another interesting point that you made was the somebody who birthright citizenship basically.
That's a big question, but I don't think it ever gets talked about at the level of. At the interest of foreign actors, which one of the tenets of the CCP is basically to deny any affiliation with the CCP if encountered with it. And so that affiliation kind of [00:12:00] reigns supreme as something that's certainly concerning.
And one of the adjacencies I see to manufacturers, and correct me if I'm wrong, to what could a real threat look like, is some of the agri terrorism we've seen, which seems to keep popping up. You look at the orange blight in Florida, somebody was arrested at the Detroit airport just a couple weeks ago with the fungus.
Josh Steinman: Two students at the University of Michigan! From China carrying this thing in. Oh, we're here to do research. Right? They were students.
Matt Horine: Yeah. It's very transactional. There's no like big secret to it. They're under student visas, they're under some kind of visa. I've heard all kinds of other anecdotes about the same type of profile. Applying to one of the big four accounting firms and not showing up for work one day, a couple of years in and going home, and that IP just disappears.
So it's a real thing. Pivoting a little bit to that, and you've talked about the industrialization. I know you were at the Reindustrialization conference a few weeks ago. You spoke with Eric Prince. How does Reindustrialization and kind of some of the buzzwords around that overlap with our national defense readiness, and how does it drill down just to manufacturing? There's a lot of highlights and spotlights on [00:13:00] defense manufacturers, but what's your take on that?
Josh Steinman: Yeah, I just think it's the same topic. If you can't produce material, that's like a term that people use to describe. The things that you need to defend a nation or prosecute a war. If you can't produce those natively, you don't actually have a defense apparatus, you have an inventory and a sort of limited time during which you can act, and then when the inventory's out, it's over.
I just think that the industrial base is national security, and I'm excited that folks like Aaron Slodov and others are really driving at this. Certainly I've been driving at this. You've been driving at this. I once wrote this on the internet, but trillions of dollars were made moving the American industrial base to Asia, and I think it's a trillion, multi-trillion dollar opportunity to move it back.
Matt Horine: Yeah. If it comes down to what I've called before, like GDP Enjoyers, if it's more transactional for those types of folks, it's look at the numbers and there's stuff in the news right now about investment dollars by which countries and those types of things. It really comes down to. [00:14:00] I've told this before.
My grandfather was a classic World War II, greatest generation profile that went served in the Navy. Got out, worked at a factory near retirement. Factory shut down was offshore in the eighties, so he was lucky there. Those back when there was pensions and a little bit of social structure around that, but the un untold billions that's happened to, it's really, it really is a consequence that most haven't thought through.
I pivoting to, we could talk about a little bit of the Veryable side of this, 'cause I think it ties in with some resilience and cyber visibility. How does that strengthen. Labor operations, flexibility and competing in this environment, whether pro or against tariffs. I think the track record is starting to speak for itself, but how does aligning security with production controllability and being able to tie that all together, is that interrelated?
Josh Steinman: Yeah, of course. I think the challenge is that we are currently operating an industrial base that was built in two phases during the war and then in the sort of post-war financialization process in the eighties. And so I just think that first of all, it's a huge [00:15:00] opportunity. What it means is. We can rebuild the industrial base with new technologies.
And I don't mean like simply physical. Oh, now we've got metal 3D printers. If you have flexible capabilities to do workforce planning, that's a huge advantage over a factory that does scheduling on paper. And so that's what I mean by a multi-trillion dollar opportunity is that industrial base really hasn't changed that much.
Like I'm here in Los Angeles on the west side, you drive around El Segundo and there's machine shops there. Those machine shops are essentially the same machine shop that existed 60 years ago, 70 years ago. They've been servicing the defense primes ever since. They operate the same way. Phone call, paper orders, just go through the list.
Huge opportunity. I have friends that, like Ken Castle, started this cool company and they'll just cut metal. Standard type of business that you have, machine shop style business. But he built it so that you can do it from the command line, basically, like you can [00:16:00] transmit the parameters over the internet in a few seconds and the machine will just start cutting the metal and then they'll package it up and send it to you.
And that is such a generational leap from, Hey, let me send you the parameters. I'm gonna FedEx them to you, or maybe even I'll email you a PDF. They're gonna print it out, all these other things and you gotta translate it back into the et cetera. So I think that we're at this real sort of focal point where we can do a lot of amazing things if we want.
Matt Horine: Yeah, that's, you could just do things. I think we've said it here a number of times and it's one of my favorite phrases. We talked to a guy who bought a plastics business and he said, one day I woke up and I said, I could just do things. Yeah, buy a plastics business, go for it.
Josh Steinman: And there's loans. That's the amazing part. Everyone's, oh, how do I do this? Hey, you go to the SVA, or in our case, the va, there are programs to help folks literally buy companies.
Matt Horine: Yeah, that's, it's all out there for everyone. I do want to touch on one other thing because there's a lot of buzz around ai and that's what is our CTO kind of coined the phrase for me, Noah Labhart, so I've gotta [00:17:00] attribute the quote I app phrased it as AI for adults.
What does it actually look like? We're not talking about generating AI slap images online and doing those kinds of things, which could be, it's fun and it's funny. AI is. Kind of got this dual role, and I think it's framed from you and your company as this attack accelerator versus kind of a defense force multiplier.
It's the war game status of it. What's the status of the US industrial cyber posture? Do you think we're leading or lagging, or do you think we're headed in the right direction?
Josh Steinman: Look, I think that the AI story probably just getting started, I have not yet seen something that I trust an AI to do. I have very high standards, exceptionally high standards, but it doesn't matter if it's writing an email or sketching a drawing.
I haven't seen anything that meets my standards yet. Now, that doesn't mean that it won't. I'm sure it might at some point, but what it is good at doing is fetch tasks. Go find me XA list of things here, and I'll call 'em through them and check over that work. And the reason why I say that, and I'm sure lots of people would argue [00:18:00] with me, et cetera.
Is, I think what we're seeing is those types of tools are going to facilitate human operations. They're not gonna be trusted to do things that are like zero fail. Right? And that's what I mean by trust, right? Like when there are people at my company and I like ask them to do something, I'm asking them not to do it.
I'm asking 'em to do it without failure, right? And I have not yet seen a task that I would trust a large language model with to do with expecting zero failures. I think these tools, and certainly like we are using some of them mostly on the sort of generation of text side. We'll have something, draft a material for us, and then we'll go through with the fine tooth comb and make sure that it describes things accurately and uses the right legal language, et cetera.
But I think that if we're on that sort of Gartner hype cycle curve, it basically has a small hump at the beginning and then a big trough, and then it accelerates to the end. [00:19:00] And I, I just think that we're probably close to that first. We're somewhere in that first local. They call it like a local maxima where again, maybe it's just me, but like my, when people tell me, oh, you should try this new tool, et cetera.
I am almost universally disappointed with these tools and I, that's not to say that they won't get to the place where my expectations are. They won't meet them eventually, but I definitely feel like we're not on that final upswing. We might be, but we're like very early in it. And that is just for written text.
And so I think that the future is gonna be that we're gonna have that same curve for systems that operate in the physical world. One example, probably the best example is the Tesla autopilot, which statistically speaking is the safest way to go from point A to point B in terms of crashes per million miles.
The numbers just came out recently. Most recent numbers came out I think maybe a week, two weeks ago. So that'd be one example where again, and [00:20:00] this is like without failure, so does that thing take accidents down to zero? No, but you can certainly trust, it'll drive you somewhere on the highway, but that's a system that's been around for six or seven years.
So I think for AI and manufacturing operations, for AI and industrial Operations, assembly, things like that, I think we have a long way to go. I'm excited about it. I am a little sensitive to the hype because again, like whether it's our experience in the military or in the sort of entrepreneurial world, there are businesses that operate with almost no room for error.
I don't think that these systems are there today, and I hope they'll get there. Long way to go.
Matt Horine: Yeah. I think that's a really good benchmark for it is we're not supposed to be so easily impressed, right? There should be some standards of governance around these things and what people are truly trying to achieve.
Before we get to closing thoughts, there's a couple of other hot topics things that are broken as of today. We're recording on Friday, August 1st. Obviously some data mismanagement going on or accusations thereof at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Some of those numbers, [00:21:00] some of the ice operations that we've seen.
I think something that parlays directly into our work at Veryable is we've seen an abuse of the system, especially H-2B Visa, seasonal work. We've seen that here in Texas. There's not gonna name any names, but there is actually a lawsuit several years ago against somebody abusing that system.
Do you see this heading in the right direction?
I, one of the things that. Popped up to me today was looking at the traffic map that you've commonly posted, which I've said Houston next, Dallas next. But it's one of those things that people don't think about how that impacts the labor market. You see a higher number of native born citizens with higher job numbers, new job numbers.
Josh Steinman: Yeah. Then the new job numbers are great. Right? 101.4 million new jobs for American citizens and under the Biden administration. Almost a hundred percent of the job growth was for non-U.S. persons. No, I, I think that this is huge and the interesting thing that I am expecting to see and starting to see right now is that I think the progress is gonna be, I don't wanna say exponential, but like maybe [00:22:00] arithmatic in terms of it's not one for one, right?
When a non-US person leaves and quits their job or has to be separated, it's not that. It's not minus one, it's minus two. Right? It's like now they have to go hire an American. So all of a sudden, like there's not remittances, that money's staying in the United States. Maybe the wages go up, but now that money stays in that community, there are compounding effects.
That person, statistically, is more likely to bring bad things with them, is more likely to be a drag on the system. They're gonna have family members on social programs that frankly they shouldn't have access to. Will they have a driver's license? All these questions, are they statistically more likely to be getting into accidents, causing harm to Americans?
So for every. One illegal that leaves the United States, there's this massive impact that's much more beyond, okay now that strawberry firm's gonna have to go buy the 15-year-old strawberry picking equipment that allows it to do it in an automated [00:23:00] fashion. But it's like they're all these second and third order benefits that I think we're just now starting to see real estate prices being one.
Matt Horine: Yeah. Real estate prices are a big one in Texas. I think that there's a statistic on the Fort Worth School District that it's an astounding number of student enrollment is actually foreign born or illegally in the country. It's a really astounding number when you're so right about that. It's not a one for one jobs.
Thing like the old classic, like they took our jobs kind of argument where there are second and third order effects to all this. We did a great show with Shannon Everett at American Truckers United. I don't know if you'd follow them.
Josh Steinman: They're giving these people CDLs with no actual identification, like there are these guys getting into truckers, getting into accidents, and when they file a claim, they, and some of 'em get posted on the internet.
You see the commercial driver's license and it's a no first name given. What? Think about it. If you remove someone who doesn't have a regular driver's license, we don't know who they are. They're here in the United States, right? If that person gets removed, that's an American trucker that gets a job, right?
It's like lower. [00:24:00] It's zero out the remittances lower. My immediate family. Has had three auto accidents over the past four years. None of them, the fault of the family members. All here in Los Angeles. All three illegals. So what happens, the insurance company comes back and they're like, we're gonna take 50% from you and 50% from the insurer of the vehicle.
Right? Because they're like, we couldn't find this person. We couldn't this, we could not. This company has insured the vehicle, so we're just gonna split it down the middle. Dude, I had my car driven into, it was parked on the side of the road by an illegal driving construction equipment three and a half years ago.
And yeah, they're like, oh, it's even fault. And they couldn't find the guy. The guy just didn't have a driver's license. He had an identification card. So just think the second, third order impacts of all these things are astounding.
Matt Horine: No, it's just a complete like butterfly effect type thing where you have no idea how much you're paying and taxes insurance and housing costs and everything else.
Especially with in manufacturing work, we see it all the time. There's this erosion of the [00:25:00] high trusts society that we're supposed to be. I can't go buy cold medicine without an id, but somebody's getting issued a CDL to be on an American roadway. It's brutal. And if you take that down to, those are just the high profile things that happen, let alone you look at education, you look at housing, you look at all of those things.
I would agree with that and, but sad, there's no way to actually track that. But the acceptable number is zero. It's you'd like to know, but I really don't because of all the turmoil that causes and what, what the district...
Josh Steinman: I think that illegals on the roads have killed more Americans than the gwot. The California Highway Patrol apparently has been conducting statistical reviews, so I'm trying to get that data out of them.
But yeah, my guess is probably about one third of the accidents In California caused by people that have no legal right to be in the United States.
Matt Horine: It's a astounding number and it just keeps coming up over and over again. But I think that trend lines are heading in the right direction, and hopefully that's where we see it in the American labor market too, is that this is closing up and we talk about it as labor access.
People don't have access. There's [00:26:00] no labor shortage, there's no shortage of workers or people who want to be involved in manufacturing. It's about access. And when companies have subsidized. Themselves to the point, and you look at tech, we could go on forever about the H one B visa fraud that that's going on right now, and remittance tax is one way to address it.
I heard you mention that earlier. We brought that up on our show a couple of times. I think Eric Schmidt from Missouri is proposing a 15%, which is generous. It's something that is repatriate the capital, do things that invest back in our country. But just a couple of closing thoughts. Advice to COOs or plant managers starting to take cyber risk seriously, what's the first step for them? Or if they're just hearing about it today, what do you recommend?
Josh Steinman: If you do nothing like don't call Galvanick, don't email me Josh at galvanick: josh@galvanick.com. Feel free to email, but if you do nothing from this conversation, please segment your industrial networks off from your IT networks and then firewalls and this and that, all this other stuff, but segment.
It's the first thing, please segment. We'll bite down a lot of risk. There's other stuff we can, I'm [00:27:00] always happy to talk to folks about it. Send me a note, we'll hop on the phone. But yeah, that's probably the biggest takeaway that I would hope that someone that even wouldn't be in the place to do business with us, we take away
Matt Horine: Excellent. And they can email you directly. And where can they go online on socials to find out more about you and the mission.
Josh Steinman: The company's called Galvanick, G-A-L-V-A-N-I-C-K.com. We've got any number of email capture devices. On the website, so just go plug in your email. I will send you an email and then yeah, on x, it's just my full name, Joshua Steinman. Yeah, good morning. We're gonna win.
Matt Horine: We are going to win. We have already won and we are going to win again. But that's my big takeaway. Thanks so much for joining us today. Great conversation and hopefully we'll have you back sometime soon.
Josh Steinman: Thanks, Matt. Sounds great. Thanks for having me.
Matt Horine: To stay ahead of the curve and to help plan your strategy, please check out our [00:26:00] website at www.veryableops.com and under the resources section titled Trump 2.0, where you can see the framework around upcoming policies and how it will impact you and your business. If you're on socials, give us a follow on LinkedIn, X, formerly Twitter, and Instagram. And if you're enjoying the podcast, please feel free to follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, and leave us a rating and don't forget to subscribe. Thank you again for joining us and learning more about how you can make your way.